Monday, June 25, 2007
Idioms: Does ASL Have Idioms?
DeafMom3 listed 20 idioms. Let's sign them out and see if we use them in our ASL?
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DeafMom3 listed 20 idioms. Let's sign them out and see if we use them in our ASL?
By Matt Daigle
By Banjo
Elaine Ernst Schneider (lessontutor.com)
About Me
- Cy
- Educated by SimCom generation. Deaf parents. Deaf husband. Two hearing KODAs.
My Canine Children
Gay, 16, a Yorkshire Terrier. She is showing her age now. Slowing down, sleeping a lot.
Lexi, 5, a White Boxer. No, she is not albino. She has brown eyes. She is a distinct member of the Boxer family that has excessive white skin pigmentation.
My Human Children
Wes, 15. First time he ever dressed up!
Garth, 16. A rebel without a cause.
One more child...
My spouse of 17 years.
Blog Archive
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2007
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June
(10)
- Should Gallaudet Drop University Status?
- Why Are Deaf Organizations Crumbling?
- Idioms: Does ASL Have Idioms?
- Is CI Surgery Immortal And Non-Consensual?
- Do Hearing People Lack In Common Sense?
- Der Sankt's Challege: ASL Translation Of His Story...
- Mike McConnell, AKA, Kokonut Pundits: Here's A Foo...
- DODs, DOHs and the System: The Bigger Picture
- Color ASL Sign Origin: SEE, Unmarked, Or ???
- SEE-Like Signs in ASL; Y-System or S-System?
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June
(10)
Deafread - Best of Deaf Blogs
Best Reading: My Literacy Circle
- The Curious Incident Of The Dog In The Night-Time by Mark Haddon
- Snowflower and The Secret Fan by Lisa See
- Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini
- The Darwin Awards Series by Wendy Northcutt
Comic Of The Day
19 comments:
What I understand from a Deaf linguist, ASL has only ONE idiom. Train gone sorry. I don't know if it is true, but I'd love to see if others can come up with more examples.
Candace,
Isn't this "train zoom sorry" an ASL version of the English idiom, "the train has departed," "The train is gone," or "the train has left the tracks"?
Means despite all the hurrying and scrambling due to being late or being unorganized, the train does not wait and leaves as scheduled. It will not come back for you. Meaning people needs to attend in order not to miss the train, translated into paying attention to conversation or lecture or whatever because there is no "replay button".
I don't know if there is any pure ASL idiom?? No English version at all.
In 1994, I asked Linguist Ceil Lucas for a list of ASL idioms. To which she replied "Zero in ASL". That is probably before Dr. Oscar Cohen's daughter (hearing who is an interpreter) wrote a book, "Train Go Sorry."
To look back, yes, I did observe some ASL idioms at the Maryland School for the Deaf and Kendall Green School for the Deaf (now LCC). They even used "train sorry go" in several versions as follows:
1. Train go sorry!
2. Fault train finish go!
3. Fault not pay attention train finish go.
I feel that deaf students who grew up in residential schools for the deaf should be the ones who should be consulted for a list of ASL idioms. Also, linguists should videotape students in the cafeteria, in the playground where students would sign in the most natural way without teachers around them.
Cy, I wish there were many natively signing deaf teachers who would teach the meaning of English idioms because signing hearing teachers are wont to sign literally when reading stories to children.
I forgot to tell one more thing about "train go sorry."
The meaning of this idiom is:
"Sorry, I will not repeat what
I have said. It is your fault
for not having paid your attention
to what I have said."
How about "swallow fish?"
Actually, my opinion is different.
I think ASL as a language is fundamentally idiomatic. When Deaf people have casual conversations, their conversations are full of on-the-spot idioms. Many of these are not used again; a few, like train-go-sorry and swallow-fish, have entered the mainstream.
But it has always seemed to me idioms are a product of TIME not LANGUAGE. Some idioms function across different languages. And many words were originally idioms. It's quite possible that idioms become words in ASL faster than in English - ASL feels like a language which lives much faster than English....
Guys,
These idioms are deviations of English idioms. Swallow fish is a deviate of "you fell for it, line,bait and sinker," referring to baiting and catching the fish = swallow the fish. Both have same meaning - believing a fallacy.
I don't think there is a PURE non-English based or deviate ASL idiom. Usually, you do find the original English idioms from which our ASL versions came from.
Joseph,
Yes, we say our idioms differently and probably faster! But the context and meaning are similar.
Jean,
Yes, our hearng teachers certainly would benefit from learning how to teach meanings of the English idioms in ASL meanings or their equivalents.
Joseph,
I would like for you to discuss
your opinion with Dr. Lucas. Dr.
Robert E. Johnson would love to
listen to your opinion.
Jean
I think I didn't elaborate the swallow the fish translation well enough - how did the ASL version shrink the idiom to just "swallow fish"? The fish refers to the person who believe the fallacy since the fish, too, believed the bait to be a real thing....so the ASL version eliminated the "unnecessary" extras such as line, bait and the sinker...go direct to the fish...since line, sinker and bait is reeled in for the purpose to catch the fish...so, as well go straight to the fish and say swallow fish...and complete the story...the fish thought the bait was a real mc coy and swallowed it and ended up got caught....therefore whoever believes a fallacy is the same as that fish who swallowed the bait = "you swallow a fish." It says you are as gullible as the fish who swallowed the bait.
Interesting how ASL tinkers with the idioms to better fit their context and how to present or introduce them into the ASL more smoothly - it certainly would be very awkward to say "you gullible, you swallowed line, bait and sinker." Swallow fish fits much better!
I'd love to talk to Lucas Johnson and Liddell all - have read their books... and studied linguistics abroad... their work is awesome. I'm not a linguist, though - I kept fighting with my linguistics teacher.
Cy, English does exactly the same thing. Like the phrase "kick the bucket" - criminals used to be hung by making them stand on buckets with a noose round their necks, then kicking the bucket out from under them.
Excuse me .... can you back up a little bit please. Because I can't see your hands on missing side and bottom. Iam sorry. But almost perfect frame. Next time be better views.
Thank You
Davy
Two things--
The other idiom in ASL that comes to mind is "bird pick brain" or "bird stole my brain" which could be interpreted in English as "It flew right out of my head." But it is a true idiom as you have to search for an equivalent English idiom.
Another good English idiom match for "train zoom sorry" could be "you missed the boat."
Relativity of idioms and expressions in ASL, AnneMariemetaASL's response
Davy,
If I sit further back, my signing becomes blurry so I tend to sit close and try to sign within the frame...but there would be some wayward fingers out of frame!
Anne Marie,
Interesting. Yes, some are quite hard to figure or to translate. Idioms, phrases are especially hard for second language learners - some interpret them too literally! That's why I love to read Archie comics - they feature these idioms, phrases, and expressions in comical and literal contexts, especially with Jughead, Moose and Dilton characters.
Elizabeth,
My mom's fave phrase is bird pick brain and fly away....another is bird told me - originates from "a little bird told me..." meaning anonymous informant. Bird pick fly away most likely originate from sea gulls who are notorious for grabbing food and flying off with them...however, I fail to see the connection between that and absent mindedness...except that what you were about to eat is gone thanks to those cursed sea gulls...so whatever you were gonna say, its gone thanks to those cursed birds = forgotten thanks to the sea gulls taking it away from you!
Yes! That was what I struggled with in relation to train zoom sorry - the appropriate English version is "you missed the boat."
Too late for ya...it wont come back for ya. Whatever I had to say, you missed it and I not gonna say it again....train zoom sorry!
Aren't idioms' job to make what a speaker want to say into pictorial language because of English's inability to express satisfactorily if spoken literally? I think ASL is full of idioms but because ASL is SO visual, they frequently go by us and it only dawns on us eventually they were actually idioms? For example, the action of bowing is not literal by any means if someone is saying (English translation) "Don't listen to everything he says!" I personally believe but with no proof as of yet that if we sever our mind absolutely from English, we will come across many many idioms in our language and we would be awed by the power of ASL!!
My little humble 2 (two-hundred) cents :D. *laugh out loud*
Oscar,
We DO use idioms but in a different way from their original English contexts or versions.
While English version use text or syntax rich phrases, ASL use pictorial rich presentations!
The point being there is no known ASL orginated idioms. Our ASL versions of English idioms all originate from English language. We tinker with them to better fit with the structure of ASL.
Another point being many of us don't realize we sign idioms on daily basis without realize they actually originate from English idioms that we have read somewhere never realizing we already sign those or know what they mean.
This is where teachers' training come in - Barb DiGi's pet peeve on teacher preparation programs stinks - hearing teachers are often unable to accurately present ASL versions of those English idioms, phrases or expressions. They simply sign out the sentence and try to explain their meanings - go right over their heads!
Cy, thank you for following up on my blog. I haven't found time to do the Vlog due to my busy schedule with 3 active kiddos!
Great job at explaining the meanings for each. Oops, I missed #16. You got it all right - except for the 'batting' - he read it in the Magic School Bus series - the Truth of Bats. I interpret it as the student being so paranoid due to the context (being in the cave with bats waking up and flying out)
My son is reading for information (he is past the 'learning to read' stage). And, he sometimes gets stuck with word for word - then he read those idioms/metaphors. He's very confused!! Poor him! I can imagine it's same for every other kids.
I have found 2 books that are helpful; they are "There's a Frog in my Throat!" by Loreen Leedy and Pat Street, " Who Let the Cat Out of the Bag? by 4th graders of Newcastle Avenue Elementary in Reseda, CA.
I once saw a thin booklet or book that was for deaf students - it has drawings of idioms that shows silly errors, then it explains what it meant. For example, the illustrations included a person beating his stick at the bush, a person caught with red hands, and so forth. Do you happen to have it at your school?
Thanks again for your time doing this Vlog.
Anne Marie, thanks for your discussion. Appreciate it! We need to expand our knowledge in ASL idioms and appreciate our language much more.
Goodnight, Kim
Kim, aka Deafmom3,
Interesting about the "batting"...I assume you meant "batting a thousand?" It is quite a well known idiom meaning someone is doing something well or giving all right answers...however, it might mean something else in another context...I'd want to read where you picked this out and see how it fit into the context - I'd probably come up with similar interpretation as yours!
"I once saw a thin booklet or book that was for deaf students - it has drawings of idioms that shows silly errors, then it explains what it meant. For example, the illustrations included a person beating his stick at the bush, a person caught with red hands, and so forth. Do you happen to have it at your school?"
I'd like to have this book! I usually like to read Archies that feature something similiar - such as beating on the bush would be in reference to "beating around the bush" - meaning avoid something or stalling upon something....red handed would illustrate someone with painted red hands or put hands in boiling water! That is why idioms, phrases, expressions often are difficult for second language learners to grasp...including deaf children as ASL is their native language...these sayings just don't make sense! Wormed out of me?? HOw did a worm get in me in the first place?? Hmm...??? LOL.
Anyway, it was fun doing the vlog.
Enjoy your kids when they are at these ages! My kids are now teenagers and oh boy do I miss them when they were little!
I'm glad that you use deaf idioms but you fingerspelling to fast that I hardly catch your spell. If you want to teach hearing some deaf idioms. you should fingerspelling slow at first and then catch the meaning.
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