Saturday, June 02, 2007
SEE-Like Signs in ASL; Y-System or S-System?
What to do with the SEE-like signs that we use in our daily ASL?
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What to do with the SEE-like signs that we use in our daily ASL?
By Matt Daigle
By Banjo
Elaine Ernst Schneider (lessontutor.com)
About Me
- Cy
- Educated by SimCom generation. Deaf parents. Deaf husband. Two hearing KODAs.
My Canine Children
Gay, 16, a Yorkshire Terrier. She is showing her age now. Slowing down, sleeping a lot.
Lexi, 5, a White Boxer. No, she is not albino. She has brown eyes. She is a distinct member of the Boxer family that has excessive white skin pigmentation.
My Human Children
Wes, 15. First time he ever dressed up!
Garth, 16. A rebel without a cause.
One more child...
My spouse of 17 years.
Blog Archive
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2007
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June
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- Should Gallaudet Drop University Status?
- Why Are Deaf Organizations Crumbling?
- Idioms: Does ASL Have Idioms?
- Is CI Surgery Immortal And Non-Consensual?
- Do Hearing People Lack In Common Sense?
- Der Sankt's Challege: ASL Translation Of His Story...
- Mike McConnell, AKA, Kokonut Pundits: Here's A Foo...
- DODs, DOHs and the System: The Bigger Picture
- Color ASL Sign Origin: SEE, Unmarked, Or ???
- SEE-Like Signs in ASL; Y-System or S-System?
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Deafread - Best of Deaf Blogs
Best Reading: My Literacy Circle
- The Curious Incident Of The Dog In The Night-Time by Mark Haddon
- Snowflower and The Secret Fan by Lisa See
- Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini
- The Darwin Awards Series by Wendy Northcutt
Comic Of The Day
17 comments:
I have never considered "initialized" signing as "SEE". It was part of the Total Communication program that was crammed down our throats at most deaf schools. The initializing part stuck, but "this, those, etc. did not. Obviously most of us are comfortable with initializing.
To me, using the Y letter for the word system looks like you are trying to "measure" a room!
Lantana
Thank you :). I basically don't care what sign ends up being a standard neutral one or two of them *shrug* or for any vocabulary of our lanuage, ASL, for that matter. I am only concerned that English get upper hand when we do not need to do that. English is mishmash of many languages and the other oral languages are so too. Sign languages have that same property. It is hard for hearies and few deafies to accept that because ASL and other sign languages of foreign countries aren't HAMMERED into the system that they ARE LANGUAGES WITH ALL RIGHTS THAT COME WITH BEING A LANGUAGE! Our language being oppressed is only one part of the system that we must constantly be on lookout and I am INDEED glad Seek Geo and Joey Baer gave us a wake up alert :).
Peace, my brothers and my sisters!
Excellent thoughts!
I wonder about the signs BEFORE SEE came into the picture. Are they any different?
I can assume people sign the exact sign/shape "BROWN" in 1900s like we do now?
Where is the visual proof? I wonder. . .
it might help to know what signs were used in 1930, 1940...
and i would replace some of the signs with the old signs
i.e. elevator,batteries
those signs that came after 1960 can become tricky...and stray from ASL
just use good judgement-95% ASL is a reasonable goal
I recall my parents, of Great Depression generation, signed the same color signs that I sign, so I think the color signs haven't evolved or deviated from any other MCE systems. What would be helpful is looking for older generation before Great Depression. Anyone whose living grandparents who were born to deaf parents before 1920's who might lend their memories of what color signs their time were...Milan era through pre-Great Depression when ASL was in its most pure form.
You all failed ASL!
Jean,
I've thought along the lines as yours. My question is whether our Congress would go along with the idea - it is socialism-based idelogy to mandate that all deaf children be referred to a federal agency for language enrichment and educational tools as Sweden does and Canada is currently attempting to do. We need to find a middle ground where the ideology incorporates democractic process in which there would still be choices.
Ridor,
Is that all you can say? Fail how?
Cy and Rene,
As in your usualness with your inquisitive minds, you pose an excellent question. As an adage says, ask and I shall answer. :)
I can very readily say that many signs we use today were invented before Dr. Gerilee Gustasson invented SEE in 1970s.
My mother was born -- are you
ready?-- in 1911. Her sign language was very graceful and poetic. Daddy (hearing) learned
sign language from a Catholic priest at St. Loyola's College before marrying my mother. Not only did they mouth but they also did think in English order as they signed many initialised signs.
I am not a linguist, but I can read and write in French. I may very well be wrong but I am inclined to believe that Laurent Clerc used SEF; that is, Signing Exact French. (See my paintings at
http://www.rit.edu/~420www/dada.htm) Clerc employed "B" for candy or
good day -- "bonbon", "bonjour."
We use "C" for "look for" based on
French's "chercher". We use "D"
for "agreed" from French's
"D'accord". We use "E" for "study"
from French -- "etudier". An old sign used by my mother (not used
today) was "O" for "egg" from French's "oeuf". Ad infinitum.
Where did our signs blue, white,
purple, black come from? None other than French: bleu, blanc,
pourpre, noir. The middle finger
must have been omitted; thereby
leaving an index finger for black,
very understandably.
I was interviewing Dr. Stokoe in
1974 for The Buff and Blue. He told me that ASL comprises 60% of
French. Not to mention BSL in New
England in 1700s. To say nothing of Clerc's new LATE-DEAFENED
students at the ASD. So the last
group may have helped Clerc with new signs that are much more
American-English than French. Take
green for verte.
But but but:
Dr. Gerilee Gustasson, the mother
of SEE, went tooooooo far. She
invented ending verbs like -s, -ed,
-ing. That is something that my mother did not live to see.
Dr. Davila was at Gallaudet in
1970s. To date, I do not know from where he got two MM for community.
Ah, the French say: Chacun à son goût (Each to his taste). :)
SUMMARY: ASL is a mixture of French, BSL, and American-English.
I would not be upset. We have so
many words in English that belong
to Latin. For example: "absurd".
Are you ready to know what it means
in Latin? It means "foolish." Stay with me. The last segment of
"absurd" means "deaf" in Spanish and French. Are we, deaf people,
fooish? No, we have long since been
burying Aristotle. :)
Bonsoir!
for
Cy,
Ooops. I am a socialist.
Actually, according to Harlan Lane in his book "When the Mind Hears" Clerc did know BOTH FSL and manual French. He did teach using manual English until Bebian showed to both continents that it is unnecessary to use manual (pick any language) but rather to stick with natural sign language of that country to educate effectively.
Admittedly, it is only one book so far. I will read more deaf histories as I come upon more of them :). Fascinating disucssion, indeed!
Heh, yeah, I agree with you "Far Out" on Oscar's idea. Interesting how people have reason for what handshape to use for the sign.
Rene,
I had a deaf aunt who was from Kentucky and she used to sign a different brown... 4 - "broadway." Her husband, another Kentuckian, used the same sign. I remembered a classmate of theirs who came to visit them from Tennessee used the same sign for brown. I assume that was regional sign for these states. My alma mater used G on cheek for gray but many others use the double 5 weave sign. I think some New England states used G on forehead for gray.
Somewhere, sometime along time, these words got assigned with first letter word along with other color signs. I don't see 4-broadway brown sign anymore.
Jean
Whew, you sure know your stuff.
Yes, I noticed Davila using M-community. Interesting sign. Dunno if it is his own unique style or a learned sign from somewhere.
I think there are some individuals who have their own signature signs.
Cy, they are not SEE. They are original ASL signs. SEE is more deeper. I don't consider it SEE although some might. Deaf has been using these signs for years before SEE was born! right? I know, cuz my family sign them before SEE was born.
C,
Yes. I said that also when I mentioned that my parents signed the same color signs I sign and their generation was before SEE.
I just finished a new vlog about that.
Cy that is funny s and y sign for "system" I see that some deaf people lips move as "s" that they sign for system and sign "Y" to say *same* that is joke
Jean,
What you brought to this discussion is amazing. I gained knowledge!
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