Sunday, April 27, 2008
DeafSide: Thanks, Tayler
Sending sincere thanks to Tayler Mayer for departing his ideology of what DeafRead should be and starting up an aggregator. We need our own space, and he felt us.
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34 comments:
agreed!
Wow... "we" destroyed DR?
*thuds*
We make what home is.
DR is a great opportunity to teach others about Deaf Culture/ASL/etc... but when others joined in the Deaf Community, folks feeling threatened and wanting them out.
Granted, I've seen some a***holes, but that goes for both sides.
Well, I really do hope you all feel better at the other side.
I, on the other hand, am gonna quit DR.
It's very clear that things have not changed a bit at all.
Deafhood, apparently, is not what I thought it was.
I do wish you all will find your happiness at your new home, DS.
It's been swell, everyone.
Absolutely!! I hope DeafSide would be more involved with ASL culture and deaf culture. I agree with you.
Thirty years ago we dont have a deafread. Example for SigNews start to share with their news.. Long way to improve in our deaf community in USA. No matter what.. I think DeafSide is part of our exictment for make a focus on deaf people or club. As such you saying it is isloate I agree with you 150% A.D.A can be improve better in from now to 30-50 years.
I can see why DeafRead is kind of take over by CI. WE don't want to kind of lost of connected or not share CI.. but sametime to be share .. not too many force on CI most. I feel that I should share as balance with deaf and CI.
Somewhat CI or oralism take over and hurt our running on DR
Bravo! Tayler
Deaf Pixie
Well-espoused in ASL, Cy ! People in general, would say "well-said" I have to convert our deaf people to think "DEAF", not hearize ourselves.
You also deserve some credits for the creation of "DeafSide", if not for your vlog presentation few months ago.
One more thing, I like to make a CONSTRUCTIVE mistake like your sign for "LISTEN". Does Taylor Myers and the DeafRead able to hear (listen)? Nope!
Just sign "ASBORB" near eyes equaled to the DEAF concept of listening. Smile!
My mission with the blog writing will be completely OVER when the DeafSide resumes on May 12th. I guess that I will go away after the sundown of May 11th for all good. Who knows?
I done my blog writings in defiance of deaf people, who choose to hearize and propagandize the Deaf World.
Another constructive criticism about you mentioned the isolation of deaf community for years. That is definitely incorrect in many ways. Deaf people are the walks of life within many communities in general, but never embrace by other hearing people as part of the human diversity.
Yes, I completely understand your concept of "global online community within the deaf community at large".
Hearing people in general, needs to walk halfway on the bridge to the deaf community by embracing our cultural and linguistic existence.
Cochlear implants on deaf youngsters and adults are the real waste of money in many ways!
Thanks again for your vlog presentations!
ASLize yours,
Robert L. Mason
RLMDEAF blog
rlmdeaf@hotmail.com
I left comment in your deafvideo.tv =)
I'd have to say I agree with Iammine.
I felt that the CI-ASL users are in the middle of the controversy.
It's a torn apart.
That's not what Deafhood is all about.
Honestly, I am glad to see it coming but...
I feel that Deaf is being "on side" instead of being on DeafRead as Deaf-centric.
I wholeheartedly do not agree the idea of putting our ASL/Culture on side. "Deaf Side" It's pretty obvious!
Looks like that we ASL surrendered and find another place like Deaf Side. That's how I look at..
I am not going to dispute but I will go DeafSide to find good v/blogs and participate.
Iammine, I hope you will reconsider. I think you and Adam Stone (not Raychelle Harris) are a few people who don't force CIs on people. You discuss ASL issues. I am sure you will be welcome at DeafSide. We just do not want people who are obsessing on pathological issues (mapping, speech therapy, etc.)
RLM
Why does your blog have to stop? Come to DeafSide. You belong there! You understand that Deaf people do not need to be fixed. You can learn to do vlogs. I am sure blogs will be accepted as long as they are Deaf-centered. DeafRead does not understand what is Deaf-centered. I have seen some people try to explain Deaf-centered to Tayler, but he is too deaf to understand!
IAmMine,
I only can presume that you have different values. Melanie, you have CI and love music. You go to concerts. To me, that does not signify a culturally deaf person. I am not saying this to offend you. It is just who you are. You enjoy music and feel hyou need sounds to function and hear music.
You may know ASL but a culturally deaf person has different values than that of a "CI-ASL" person as it seems to be a new word going around now.
You remind me of 3 students I have at work. They speak, oftentimes without signing, have a lot of hearing, one loves music. In that class, there's a war zone. There are 9 kids...6 are culturally deaf and 3 kids who speak...the 6 kids get really annoyed with those 3 kids who do not sign.
I had to explain about the principle of "equal communication access" to those 3 kids and they are not to speak during classtime but they can speak in the cafeteria or during recess when in each others company only. One adjusted pretty quickly because he grew up at that same school with same classmates but the other 2 were transfers from public schools so they have harder time remembering to sign all the time.
So in that class, it is divided. In middle school at that.
Have you experienced this as a child, Melanie?
What I object is the arrogance of AVT-CI bloggers. They act as if they were a Messiah, coming to the world to say that deaf people without CI are not normal and then say they've to educate us about AVT-CI.
DeafCenter sounds more powerful than DeafSide.
I'm not going to say much here, because Mel can take care of herself and choose to respond to you or not... But as a good friend of Mel (whose name is NOT Melaine), you make a lot of assumptions, and like assumptions tend to be, they are not accurate.
That's a lesson that apparently needs to be learned by quite a few.
A lot of culturally Deaf people do wear hearing aids and listen to music. The musical entourage Rathskellar, with its Deaf musicians is extremely popular in the Deaf Community.
Deaf Pundit,
I remembered her name as Mel...I assumed it was short for Melanie...so I stand corrected...Mel it is. Correct, you don't need to speak for her. She can do it herself.
I was NOT assuming. Mel herself had said she has CI and loves going to concerts. CI helps her appreciate music more.
Beyond that, I was asking her WHAT her values are and how she defines "culturally deaf" because she felt DeafRead was fine just way it was while many of us did not. I asked her if it was because she has CI herself thus different values as a deaf person or deaf member of the community.
No assumptions there - read carefully. I used my students as an example. I asked her if she ever had an exerpeince like that because that was a strong example of culturally deaf students versus oral students.
MZ,
Yes, I am aware deaf do appreicate music but I believe culturally deaf appreciate music quite differently from those who are not. Rathskellar was mostly bass - full of vibrations and not so much about sounds or words.
Yes, we do enjoy translating lyrics into ASL lyrics. The key here is keepig the song lyrics in ASL while those who are not culturally deaf tend to keep song lyrics in their original versions.
There are some of us who are desperate to truly hear and appreicate music to the point they will go for CI just for that. Then there are some of us who are content just to feel music to appreciate it.
I really hate it when my mother in law says, "It's too bad you can't hear the music - it's so beautiful." What - does she think I miss out on not hearing it? I find beauty in many other ways and not necessarily in music. For instance, she doesn't find beauty in photographs the way I do - I actually get "high" when looking at iconic or unique photographs. I appreciater Art and she doesn't. She doesn't find beauty in ancient artecture the way I do. Only in music does she find beauty. I think she misses out on a lot!
If you want ASL to survive the evolution, you're going to have to open it up to the inclusivity concept.
If DBC is asking AG Bell to tear down their walls, why is DR building up walls within the deaf community?
Richard
Hi Cy,
I apologize for not responding back last night – had to work on papers to meet the midnight deadline.
I understand that you meant no offense. However, you were assuming things about me such as myself reminding you of your other 3 students interacting with 6 ASL kids.
I was born profoundly deaf. Stone deaf. I grew up in a musical family and there were always loud music with bands at parties, including at our house. My mother’s 2nd husband was a guitarist and my mom played piano, guitar, and singing. She often signed for me. That’s how I grew to appreciate music as a deaf person.
Then music became a secret for me for many years because I got sick of the usual comments:
Hearing: “How can deaf people enjoy music?!” “Doesn’t that waste a hearing person’s ticket?!”
Deaf: “For for? Hoo hoo you” (hoo on head)
I’ve been identified almost all names except for cueing:
Oralist (even though I grew up in TC program)
Culturally hearing (hoo on forehead)
Cyborg
Monkey
HOH (which I find very funny and does not apply to me at all)
Child abuser
Culturally deaf
*insert here whatever else you want here – I’m sure I’ve been called that*
I love music and have gone to concerts more than I have with my CI. Woo, yes! Stone deaf, me. Vibrations rock, baby. Throw lyrics in that – wooot!
The key is the right interpreter which has been my main beef. I prefer analyzing lyrics and listening with CC with my CI. With interpreters, I prefer they use ASL to interpret the concepts of the songs, not word for word. ASL is quite powerful, if it’s done right. With or without CI, it’s a beauty. I do enjoy music a lot more with my CI, yes. But it does not defer one from enjoying music in a different way. It is possible, yes, as MZ pointed out with some culturally deaf people in a band – let’s not forget the Beethovens nightmare band! Oh! What about Russel Harvard?! Is he not a culturally deaf person ‘cuz he loves to interpet ASL songs at Gallaudet?
Even deaf people of all different backgrounds can have different values whether they are culturally or non culturally deaf, even hoh.
Now, I grew up with deaf/hoh from different backgrounds. I’ve had a best friend who transferred out of our TC system to deaf institution. Then my new best friend transferred there. One came from a culturally deaf family. The other one learned the deaf culture at deaf institution. I also have friends who are oral with/without CIs, SEE, SimCom, PSE, ASL. But no cuers. I’ve never known one. I wouldn’t mind meeting one either.
The key here is respect. Everyone wants respect. Everyone wants that on DR, too. Even with different views. Everyone wants to be seen and heard.
We are here to learn from each other.
You also made assumption that “it didn’t bother me” with too many CI blogs. Where did I say that? It bothers me that there weren’t enough ASL vloggers! Where the heck were they?
It does bother me that there were some condescending attitudes and nasty remarks – from both sides.
I’ve said that you and other should have made more vlogs/blogs. I did wonder where everyone went. Then everyone complained about the CI blogs.
Thus, it feels like an invasion to many and they don’t want to “skip” threads or control by using Custom blogs without hurting anyone’s feelings.
The message is loud and clear.
Instead of saying, “I’m not interested in those blogs, so I’m gonna vlog about this or that so I can attract more vloggers to join”, many spent their energy in demanding changes to get rid of different views that do not even apply to us at all.
Suppose AGBell did that on their AGBell aggregator – you bet they wouldn’t hesitate to get rid of us with “Get out of AGBell.com!!!” comments. Then we bomb them with a lot of ASL vlogs and those people whined. Wanted to create a new aggregator? They’ve got it!
How are we any better than them?
Okay, I can see Adam Stone’s point in having a “deaf club” and that is really great. Really. I do see that it would be great talking more about ASL and Deaf Culture. I just don’t see why not on DR?
I’m not going to drag anyone down here but I’m just sharing my feelings. I really do hope it makes a lot of people happy over at the DeafSide site.
Tayler’s right – the deaf community has always been and will always be divided.
So that means deafhood is impossible in theory. That was my main motivation – getting everyone feeling welcomed and sharing their different experiences without getting attacked (I’m referring to all sides here).
I want to see deaf people empowered. Minus intolerance.
I hope DeafSide will help them accomplish that goal and maybe they won’t feel so terrible about being around different people with different views and ideas and NOT feeling oppressed at all. That seems to be the major issue.
I am deaf. I use ASL and support ASL. I do use CI but not “to function” as you’ve pointed out. Some may do, though. I do enjoy sounds with it, simple as that.
I am mine. I only own my mind. I know I was born and I know that I’ll die… the in-between is mine. I only know my mind. I am mine.
You can label me however you see fit – it’s all about perspectives and opinions.
I apologize if I’m raining on your parade, but I really do hope you and others find happiness at the new home.
It really has been swell, folks. :)
P.S. Thanks, Deaf Pundit – miss ya, too!
P.S.S. Yup, your mother missed out by the beauty of art.
Cy,
Oh, I read carefully. A direct quote from you, "You remind me of 3 students I have at work. They speak, oftentimes without signing, have a lot of hearing, one loves music."
If that is not an assumption, then what is it?
Deaf Pundit
"You remind me of 3 students I have at work. They speak, oftentimes without signing, have a lot of hearing, one loves music."
If that is not an assumption, then what is it?
___________________________________
Hmmm....which part of my quote above is an assumption?? They are MY students with whom I work with everyday.
It is a FACT they often speak without signing.
It is a FACT they are capable of speaking and were not pretending to be able to speak. Their favorite class is speech - quite unusual for a deaf student...most deaf students hate speech sessions. Their speech teacher types her parts in IEPs and I read her statements and KNOW for fact they speak very well.
It is a FACT they have a lot of hearing - you cannot argue with their audiograms, can you? The fact they understand each other without signing is just more evidence they hear well with their hearing aids.
It is a FACT one loves music - he brings his personal CD player to school everyday.
So...where are the assumptions you said I made??
DO you know that I am a teacher, Deaf Pundit?
Cy, how dare you to oppress these three kids from speaking? it's no different than telling a child they can't sign!
These kinds of things is what is going to scare a lot of hearing parents away.
wow...is all I can say.
Okay, I think the assumption being pointed out by DP is the speaking part. Even the hearing part.
Who said I could speak? ;)
I can't speak worth s**t. :D So I am not like your students who rely on speaking and even hearing!
Ironically, since I got my CI, I've turned off my voice. I don't like how my voice sounds.
I do speak with my family and those who are used to my speech patterns. The rest - I sign.
But I've also seen some of my culturally deaf friends who do the same thing and they do use ASL other times.
I wish I could keep going on here, but I've got to *stammers* work on more papers and working on the internship.
My responses may be slow, if at all. :)
It was obvious from your statement that you're a teacher, so yes, I know that. What does you being a teacher have to do with this?
And the assumption lies in the notion that Mel is like your students. She is nothing like your students.
Cy,
I say this with kindness. Iammine is not like these three students with c.i. you have in your classroom. Please do get to know her. :)
Anonymous,
I rather read and view other deaf people's blog writings and vlog presentations than subjecting myself in such a controvesty (hot water) among the deaf community at large.
Yes, I would love to do the vlog real SOON. I did buy the new laptop with the video camera built-in last February 2008. I never get to this laptop and do the vlog presentation.
I have to learn and finesse the vlog recording, then switch it to my blogsite.
I must limit myself to the use of computer up to less than one hour per day. I don't want to spend more and more time by sitting on chair for reading/viewing the DeafRead and the incoming DeafSide.
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
I AM MINE,
I sympathize with you about how other deaf people label you in that manner.
I am fighting against the proponents of CI toward deaf babies and youngsters without their consents or permissions. Same thing with the CI industry and medical professionals for not giving any deaf baby or youngster any chance to be a deaf person.
I have no beefs with you for being a CI user. Yes, I did say some nasty words toward the CI users, ex. Rayhelle Harris. I found out later that Rayhelle really do not wear any CI in her first vlog series.
How come didn't Adam Stone get his own vlog? He eloquently do the ASL signings.
Adam Stone really do not get the big picture of what the CI make the devastating impact on the deaf community at large. He is a lucky son of gun with the well-to-do upbringings as compared to many CI users from the poverty level.
Very typical of every cultural and linguistic community feel threatened or slighted out when any total stranger or out of town individual waltz into the given community. People in general, would typically respond "Why he/she is here??" "What reasons for this person being here?"
I am speaking of every cultural and linguistic community around the world.
I guess that many of us, deaf people already watch the "Star Trek: Next Generation" tv series of the 80s with the Borgs forcibly perneuated the U.S.S. Enterprises and borgized the spaceship crews and Captain Picard. In the end, Picard uttered "I felt such coldness and darkness" when he turned borgized for awhile.
We could not deny how powerful the cultural medium could inflict on our thoughts!
I have no problems with deaf people acting out hearing while vocariously listened to the music.
Two different things between the hearing lyrics and ASL songs. Deaf people ought not to mimick hearing musics in any way. We need to develop our own ASL expressions than every words from the music itself.
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
Cy,
"You (Iammine) remind me..." is the assumption part of your statement.
Ann_C
Hmmm... I watched your vlog. Your point that the divisions had been going on for a long time is valid. But I draw a line at how the teachers impose the deaf values on the deaf children who feel more at home with speaking and listening.
So my son is not deaf enough, even though he is born into the deaf family, having gone to deaf schools, is mainstreamed, and who happens to like sing (he is on the 5th grade choir), likes talking, etc. He signs in ASL at home and with friends. BUT the FACTS that he can talk and listen very well makes him not "deaf enough". He already expressed his interest in CIs, at the age of 11 years old.
I understand the need for equal access to communication... especially at deaf schools. During the lessons, yup, the respect is expected. BUT however, during non-teaching periods, sure they are on own, whatever.
So I can tell my son and my daughter who both like talking and listening that they are not deaf enough? There are FACTS:
1) They have outstanding speech recognition.
2) They ENJOY speech lessons.
3) They LOVE music.
4) They talk a lot without signing, with an exception of my daughter who attends ISD (my son is mainstreamed.)
AND.... like Iammine, they are fluent in ASL. Like her, they have deaf friends. So forth.
Then, what makes you to be the judge of people like my children and Iammine? Accepting is different from labeling. My onw children taught me a lot about accepting deaf people, especially the deaf people who feel more at home with talking and listening. There is NO crime in it.
I am sorry for coming strong, but that is the mother in me standing up for my children's right to be part of deaf culture. And at the same time, the rational person in me knows that there would NEVER be unity...
Deaf Pundit,
Again, I ASKED IAmMine if she HAVE HAD experience similiar to those of my students...I asked, I did not assume. Ok?
Candy,
EH??? How dare I oppress my students?? HELLO?? I teach at a school for the deaf, not a mainsteam program. I did NOT say they CANNOT speak - they MUST SIGN...if they want to sign and speak, they can, and they DO. AS LONG AS THEY SIGN. They used to just speak WITHOUT signing...so is that equal communication access to their classmates?? NOT.
They can speak without signing outside classroom at their heart's content. I've said that in my vlog.
Karen,
No need to protest. I was just making observations how I see the chasm between my students simply because the 3 can speak and hear and value them...out of 6 others, 3 can speak and hear well...they don't use either because they are, like I said, culturally deaf...all of them come from hearing families, unlike yours. I found that interesting. I was a first year teacher with that class and I did not know their background so I had no influence upon them.
COming from deaf family myself, growing up in deaf community, I ve seen deaf-family members who ARE NOT culturally deaf. Like you said, there to exceptions to the "rule."
IAmMine
WOw, I did not realize you don't speak. That's interesting! It is just that you seem to value sounds, music to the point you got CI for that reason...most of the time, in most cases, enjoying hearing comes with wanting to speak as well. This seems to go hand in hand. Like I said above, there seems to be exceptions to the rule!
I was just sharing what I've seen in classroom and even in middle school, there is a chasm between those 3 boys and their other classmates simply because they prefer to speak than sign.
Thus why I use the word "value."
Candy,
I agree with Cy. The kids with c.i. are in a Deaf class. How can the Deaf classmate understand them if they don't sign, even if they are talking among themselves. It is an issue of equal communication access.
They are free to talk orally during the recess and lunch time. It is a matter of courtesy and respect.
Whoa. Despite Cy and my argument over IamMine, I gotta say, Candy.. What the heck?
I think it's only fair that the students in Cy's classroom all sign, so everyone knows what's being said.
That's what equal communication access is all about, and I find it interesting that you, a person from a Deaf family, do not give an impression of really understanding this.
You need to apologize Iammine for assuming things about the CI, music and voice (Speak).
Since Iammine was born profound deaf, you did not consider her a culturally deaf person eventhough she *loves* music.
You need to stop assuming on people that you don't know about them as an example.
CI people with ASL or non-ASL sure don't need to speak. They are different people in the world.
I am no longer a fan of yours. I am leaving you and Deafread.
White Ghost
Heard you, Cy.
What I appreciate about deaf community is its spectrum... we should not feel threatened by the spectrum. There are many factors for the deaf people's identities... leading to generalizations/stereotypings. It is in our human nature to make senses out of things/people by generalizing, I guess.
I guess we thrive on divisions more than unities... divisions are more interesting in the times of peace and unities are eagerly sought out for during the times of conflicts.
*shrug*
White Ghost,
I was not rejecting IAmMine because she has CI or loves music. I was merely responding to her annoyance with starting up DeafSide which she did not see the need for it...that DR was fine just the way it is...I suggested that she has different values of which may be why she felt DR is fine the way it is...strong culturally deaf people feel differently. I am trying to define what a cultural deaf's value is.
It is ok if my view of what cultural deaf person is is not accepted by others...after all, it is just matter of opinion or perspective.
I still fist-kiss IAmMine...she is awesome and always offers though-provoking statements. I hope she will continue to come and visit.
Karen,
I think you nailed it in the head with this...
"I guess we thrive on divisions more than unities... divisions are more interesting in the times of peace and unities are eagerly sought out for during the times of conflicts. "
Right - we tend to generalize to make sense of things...I am guilty of that.
Hey, Cy - I'm glad this discussion had been going on the way it has.
It's good that sometimes even when we want to pull some hair out, we can still come out as decent human beings. :D
I was more annoyed with the fact that ASL vloggers wanted to go to another place to "get away" from certain people, not how DR was "fine" with too many CI topics, but rather that DR was a fine place to continue bombing with more ASL/Deaf Culture related vlogs to keep it "balanced" - there would be days where it'd be off and then other days more than the others. It's how you make it, ya know?
I do understand how folks were feeling with too many topics that they were getting sick of and their feelings shouldn't be dismissed either. But rather to head on and make more vlogs, instead of making ill comments towards other people. We've been getting that similar treatment most of our lives and no need to pass that onto others, eh?
I've been guilty of generalizing as well - I think we all are at varying degrees. :P
It does seem at at times we get annoyed with each other on DR but with such discussions like this could reduce that and end up hugging each other at the end of the day. :)
Ah well. I have a lot to do anyway... so it's a good time for a good and long break! :)
Thanks for allowing this discussion to take place, Cy!
Now I have to get my rear back to what I was supposed to be doing. Ah, I'm going to pay for this dearlyyyyy!!!!
It's ok, though... I hope folks will deal with this the best way they can - on either sides or even in the between. :)
Ciao!
Thanks...
Caltel
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